To The Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf

Two Guys, One Book

To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf

Hello and welcome back to two guys one book. I'm Tim and I'm Brian and today we read or we are discussing To the lighthouse by Virginia Woolf written it was published in 1927. I think I think that's right. Yeah late 1920s. Mmm. So pretty old but consider to be a classic. Yeah. Time’s top 100 write novels or something. Hmm. What were your first impressions of the book? Well, I mean, I never read Virginia Woolf before and like we said it's considered a classic so reading it I didn't really I kind of well, I did read a little synopsis saying it's not really plot-driven. It's more about her writing and diving into the minds of her characters, but with that being said you want to do you want to give a synopsis of it? Before the impressions? Well, yeah. Well like I mean did I have any preconceived notions coming in starting this book? Not really. I just knew Virginia Woolf was a famous author  , okay, but we'll do a quick pots. I mean, did you have any preconceived notions coming into this when I'm in first impressions as far how you thought overall?

Why'd you pick it? Why did I pick it? Yeah. Okay. So first of all, we haven't read that many female authors yet. You have picked any Brian. I've only picked one. Yeah, right and we’re only on like book eight. Yeah, that's true. It's this is an early early podcast and my - I'm preemptively showing people that were not sexist. I'm just kidding  but. She seems like I mean, it's very famous book and she's a famous author. I thought it would be like Sylvia Plath a little bit. Have you read Sylvia Plath? I’ve read The Bell Jar and I like the fellows are Lively. Yeah. I have not that's her only book. Right? So you're panicking is her only book. Yeah. Yeah. She wrote a lot of poetry. There you go. But yeah, okay, so. Yeah, I guess just because it's like a classic country like a classic book. I don't know. I I I think that's a good choice for picking it because they're Classics for a reason but I also like reading them and then making up my own mind as well. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not going to be objective. Yeah, right. It's also like philosophical people's that was like yes, very philosophical book in a lot of ways. So we're both into that thought. That would be interesting. Okay, so quick summary. Yes, this will be hard because there's not much pot on the basic overview. Is that the main characters or so it starts with these two parents Mr. And mr. Ramsey and they have eight children and their at of house where they have some guests as well. And basically it's just a lot of dialogue between them and talking with the kids and some arguments and things like that eventually like they grow older. Mrs. Ramsay dies. Like two of the kids die one in world war one. So this is taking place partly in World War one and they talked about going to the lighthouse in the beginning and then eventually they go to a lighthouse that's honestly like a whole story more or less. I might I'm not officially go to the like, yeah, and there's a little more to it. But like right I mean, it's not it's it's in the Scottish Isles it takes place in the Hebrides off the coast of Scotland which are like an archipelago islands and it was like their vacation home.  Not where they live permanently, where they would go to vacation and I think like the book is split up into three sections. The first one is just them at the vacation home wanting in the little boy James is wanting to go to the lighthouse but they can't because the weather is bad. And then they have dinner with everyone there and at their house there and then the second part is called time passes, which was short as a shorter part very eloquently written not so much in concrete details of what happens. She more elaborates. She has very nicely written prose about like an analogy to how time passes like. Different things or something and then in between there she says, oh Mrs. Ramsey dies. Oh Andrew dies and Prue dies. And then the third part is called to the lighthouse and whichever one comes back to that vacation house in Scotland and then James and cam, the Son and Daughter the youngest son and daughter, go with Mr. Ramsey on a sailboat to the lighthouse and then there's these other characters that aren't the Ramseys like Lucy Briscoe and was like a painter. Yeah or wannabe painter. I didn't sound like she was very good. She doesn't have to be good. But yeah. So yeah, there's a bunch of other ancillary characters in there, too, but. I think the whole reason this book is a classic is because it dives deep into the inner thoughts and feelings of the characters and I think at a time when maybe not many authors were doing that and it it was very interesting. Yeah, I think. If we consider it in the context of when it's written and that time period it's a little more remarkable maybe or groundbreaking. But to me the style felt kind of disorienting because it's hard to follow when everything is so like stream of conscious. Yes. That's a good way to explain it. Yeah, so I wish there was a little more plot. I wish it was a little more straightforward but. If you're prepared for that going in then it's a good reason she writes well like it's well written. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yes, her prose is very well done. And that it really I'm not an English major. So forgive me but like, she actually uses metaphors a lot like in describing time or thoughts like the waves on a Shore something and so maybe that's fitting that they're on an  Island on the coast of Scotland and very very much a lot of water and Beach and nature kind of like metaphors to time passing or or emotions or other things like that. It's a lot of imagery and it's very like poetically written I would say but so many commas, like it’s hard to find when a sentence will end because like an entire page will just be comma comma comma right? Oh, it's it. It's. Yes, she's writing and then inserts as a phrase and another phrase with him that phrase about the previous phrase and just yeah, it is at times difficult to follow which makes made me at times just kind of skim and not really absorb. You know what she was saying or what she was trying to get across. I think English Majors would love this book because you can you can drill down and dissect these sentences and what she's getting at and what do these metaphors mean and and all of these things because she goes into Mrs. Ramsay and mr. Ramsay and their relationship and then James’ relationship with both his mother and his father and and just all kinds of stuff. You can really get into it pretty hardcore. But I also found that you can also see in this writing because we know Virginia Woolf drowned herself and was dealing with some sort of manic depression or something so you can. I'm sure that people can analyze those aspects of her writing as well. Yeah, there's a lot of angles that to look at this or different ways to see it. I think how did she kill herself? She walked she like she drowned herself like so like she like loaded her Pockets up with rocks and stuff and walk down in the ocean. pretty intense. that is intense that it's not the way I would do it. I'm not going to commit suicide. Okay. Well, but yeah. Yeah, it'll be it'll be over shortly run podcast final of the Season. Yeah, so I mean. This is one of those books where. Do you appreciate the book for how it's written or the story it tells or perhaps the characters or you like what? You know, like what is it about? I mean, this is I mean this is different for everybody and I think every book is different because you can like you can like book A because it's a good story and it kept her interest and it's a page-turner as they say, you know, like Dean Koontz, John Grisham, I think those guys are good at just turning out book after book with a good story that keeps readers interested and that's why they're so popular. I've never read either one of them really so I can't critique them. But maybe they're not, you know, they're not considered. Maybe John Grisham has some good quality books, but like Dean Koontz isn't considered an all-time great author, but he's a best-selling author. So like if you like book A because of his great story, that's great. If you like book B because it's you know, eloquently written by not a good story, you know, like so. like I used to I don't really have a particular book. I like, you know, I when I read a book, I neither know whether or not I like it, Do you have a particular way you Trend like when you're reading a book do you like a book? That's it has a lot of story and a lot of deep character development or do you like a book that is just well written and you can picture it in your mind? That's a good question. I think the more we've been reading books for this. I think characters are pretty important to me like the development of character and the arc the story arc and how it affects them how they grow and learn lessons along the way I think that's why what made this book little hard for me is because it doesn't really go that much in depth into the individual characters. It kind of jumps around a lot. Yeah, but the did you find any particular characters that. Like for me I felt like James was the most evolving character or maybe cam because they were the ones with their father in the third part of the book to the lighthouse when they're sailing to the lighthouse and we can she die, Virginia Woolf Dives deep and deeper into their thoughts and feelings about their relationship with their father, which I found interesting. If not, they weren't quite relatable to me because like Mr. Ramsey was very harsh father. He was not very loving he felt like I mean we'll get to it when we do our quotes, but  he was like a philosopher something. He was a published author about philosophy. So he was more worried about how he will be remembered and that life is fleeting and So he kind of left his he didn't he didn't show overly he didn't he wasn't overflowing with emotions towards his children. And so then James at times had hatred towards them which I can't relate to personally because I personally like my dad but you know, I found it interesting how I'm I guess that was the biggest character development and maybe Lily Briscoe as well. Lily was the painter in the first part of the book who they thought she was going to marry somebody but she didn't and then she came back years later with Mr. Ramsey in the children after Mrs. Ramsey died. And then with Lily you get you see her grief over Mrs. Ramsey's death, which I found interesting to explore that and Virginnia Wolfe has some very elegant phrases in there. Dad was a good character because really yeah, I mean not a good. Let me clarify, the guy not a good person but a good character because he was more fleshed-out than a lot of them like the fact that he was this metaphysical philosophy Professor. So he's like highly esteemed and that Mrs. Ramsey like appreciates him and stuff. But like yeah some of the kids resent him and he's he has these like existential crises sort of throughout the book. And wondering how his legacy is going to live on and he needs that validation from like his wife and sort of the confidence to keep going. So I think he was a little more well-rounded as a character just more ways to look at him, right? So yeah, that's a good point. He was he was a more developed character than most in the book as well. Yeah. So what was your favorite part of the book the book? So one quick thing I'll say about the style since we're sort of catching on that sure is that I think as a book I enjoyed it more as an audiobook than reading it because it is so stream of conscious like the and Nicole Kidman narrated it so that was pretty cool. Okay. Yeah, she has a nice voice. Yeah, but just because the way it's red, it feels more like a it's like a dialogue in your head almost is how a lot of this is written. It feels like Virginia Woolf just like thinking things up and then and in the place of some of the characters she's thinking things from their perspective. And yeah, and I think taking it in context for the time in the 20s for female author to write about a wife's perspective of the relationship of and being a mother in Miss from Mrs. Ramsey's point of view in the first part of the book. I felt is was probably pretty revolutionary at the time. I can't imagine there were many female authors writing about being a wife and a mother to you know, yeah. Well, it's interesting because she's like has this reputation as a feminist author, but then Mrs. Ramsay as a character. It was basically like she's like, oh being a mother is the best thing a person can do. I mean like that's great. I took a hundred percent appreciate that but she seemed a little one-dimensional as a character. So interesting to me, I mean at least sort of in the beginning I think. Parts I like about her is that she would like stick up for her kids, I think and then also criticized them if they were being jerks to like other people. So she was like, I think she was a good mother but it's strange that you have this feminist author whose, you know celebrating that role of a mother so much right right, but I think. I took it as this way because there were there were some when I read some quotes here in a minute that maybe like you said, she's Virginia Woolf is supposedly a feminist I know icon, right? Maybe not maybe icon is too strong but of a feminist period but at times her writing does not come off like person of of a written by feminist. So I took it as may be viewing giving Virginia Woolf the benefit of the doubt and thinking about her personal issues and maybe she was down on herself. Her Depression was manifesting itself through her writing that you know, Women like at one point Mr. Ramsey says looking at Mrs. Ramsey. I wonder if she's understanding what she's reading. Probably not. And like little things like that and we're maybe Virginia Woolf is manifesting her negative views of herself through her writing, you know, which I that's just complete speculation, but made me at least give her Virginia, Virginia Woolf the benefit of the doubt because I know her personal issues. Yeah, I totally know it's possible. I think writing trying to think out of phrase this, writing a character like her husband who says things like that. Maybe that's her way of almost poking fun at the issue or just observing it in a way. Like I think she's a very observant person to the way she writes details in general. It's very like detail-oriented. So when she has characters say those sort of off the cuff not politically correct things. I wonder if it's for a reason like that. In my Kindle version. This is the first book I read on Kindle officially. Congratulations. Yes. Thank you. So I have all my notes that I highlighted here, which is awesome. But I'm not I'm not a hundred percent certain that I'll read everything on Kindle. But anyway and the Kindle version I have there's a quote at the end. They have a several quotes of by Virginia Woolf and one of them is. If you do not tell the truth about yourself, you cannot tell it about other people. So I like that quote and I feel like what we're talking about is touching on that. Maybe maybe you're right. Maybe she's telling the truth about herself, but also then,  poking fun and telling like being kind of sarcastic or ironic in the way that Mr. Ramsey views his wife. Like all men just think women are are simple minded. Yeah, I feel like it's hard to know what an author's intentions are in general like yes, and I agree with that. It's like a lot of English seminars or just sort of theorizing and sometimes they actually are really confident that an author is trying to say this thing and it's like. Nobody really knows a hundred percent. I mean unless like in an interview her dad was like this is what I meant, but I don't know how many interviews there are for the record, right? And I think I think that's why English Majors love this book is because they can speculate till the cows come home. Yeah, and there is nobody that can really say otherwise, you know, and I think that's. I think that's what makes this book a considered a classic. I think that's perfectly fine. Do I think it's a classic? I don't know. I mean I liked it. But I mean. yeah, what was what would have made it a better book in your opinion? That's a good question. More action car chases. Yes. Yes, not enough shooting ice. There were no shootouts in this book. Now you can you believe that the like they should have rather light out. Oh, yeah. Well considering the last book I read with a lighthouse was annihilation. Remember that movie enough? Yeah, that's a very into it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But anyway, this was better than Annihilation any time, what would have made this book better for me? Good question. I don't there's not an easy answer to that because I think this book is just so vague in what happens. You know, there's no I mean a lot of it is kind of just talking about life and the meaning of existence and and you know the death of Mrs. Ramsey. Mr. Ramsey in the kids finally going to the lighthouse years later. It's just about Human Relationships, but. I think she could have done more. I don't know more about the relationships, but I guess that vagueness is part of the beauty is, you know her allegories or metaphors or whatever our kind of what draws people to it. Yeah, not so much me. Yeah, I mean, I know it's very well written don't get me wrong. I like the book. It was well written. But yeah, I'm just not one to, yeah, analyze the words. Yeah, I mean I was a little disappointed too. But I think other people have compared this to like Ulysses by James Joyce, you know, which is. And I haven't read it. But my understanding is that it's also told from like the perspectives of multiple characters and their points of view and that sort of style so maybe some parallels there. But yeah, it's just for this one. There just wasn't much of a story, not a lot of character development, just not allowed to keep me engaged I know is written in like the 20s and then it has these like it's well-written and good. Imagery whatever wasn't wasn't The Great Gatsby written in the 20s or 30s something like that. Yeah, probably the 30s didn't take place in the 20s. Yeah, the Roaring Twenties like I mean, that's a great book. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean like that I think is universally liked that's what I was thinking like Tolstoy was written Mmm Yeah before this and like right kept my attention when I read like, you know some historians. All right, right. So I mean there. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe this is just the book for those that love the English language, you know and love analyzing every sentence and breaking it down and being able to subject-- whatever they want on the meaning behind the things I can't quite articulate what I'm trying to say. Either can Virginia Woolf. Yeah, that's good. Anyway, do you want one of the quotes because you can go ahead you have more quotes than me? Well, I mean, all right, so I'm gonna start with this because this is what I think the book is all about this one little quote. And this is this is the this is what I'm going to actually analyze the sentence. All right. So this is the quote that I have here. As if to be caught happy in a world of misery, was for an honest man, the most despicable of crimes. So let me break that down. As if to be caught happy in a world of misery, was for an honest man, the most despicable of crimes. So this world of misery I think is what Virginia Woolf is how Virginia Woolf views the world. and I think her being an honest man or woman is the highest virtue you can have in this world of misery. So but being honest, you can't be happy because if you're caught happy in a world of misery, you're not being honest. To be honest in the world misery is to recognize the world is crap. But if you're happy, then that constitutes as a crime and I feel like that can be an that can set the tone for this whole book because no one's really happy in this whole book. They ever at least the adults. Mr. Mrs. Ramsay some of the other adult characters view the world as the kind of a bleak and like unforgiving place. And mrs. Ramsay laments the fact that children have to grow up and they'll never be happier than when they are as children. Because they all view the world as misery and if they're happy that's actually like you're not being authentic to the world. So that's might as well be a crime to be happy. Yeah, so yeah, so I mean that's that's like this whole book in my opinion. It's just a world of misery. Pretty happy stuff. So so yeah, I think going off that there's something and I looked online about like this book too because I was trying to round out my thoughts and opinions and someone was saying how a big part of this was just showing how subjective reality is and that's kind of the philosophical side of this is like there's not one objective truth. It's all told from these different peoples these different characters perspectives and like with the backdrop of world war one and all this like depressing things going on. It sort of fits into that historical context and then you bring up a good point because like Hemingway wrote a lot and after World War one right in like. That's like The Lost Generation for Europeans or British. Right? Looks like fought in World War II and stuff, right? Yeah. It's not fought in the Spanish Civil War. Oh, yeah, but like, I think there was this overarching tone after World War One of like, oh my God, what did we just go through. Humanity is on the like was stretched pushed to the brink and how are we ever going to come back from that and it's perfectly understandable. Um.  Yeah, I don't know where I'm going with this. But but I think that has to the gloomy factor of the writing which is again understandable. But I think what you had on it is also right that people's perspectives are so subjective that reality to one person is not reality to another and I think you're right that is has a lot to do in this book. Because like even James the youngest in the first part of the book, he's six years old and then she has talks of here like had there been an axe handy a poker or any weapon. That would have gashed a hole in his father's breast and killed him then there and then James would have seized it. So like even when he's 6 he's filled with anger towards his father and you know, his father may not be particularly a bad person overall. He's just not very loving and emotional two is six year old son. But that creates this animosity towards them that never goes away because in the third part of the book when they're sailing to the lighthouse, his son is fixated on steering the boat the sailboat because he knows if he slips up one little bit his dad's going to say something and he doesn't want to have to deal with his dad. Yeah. He's got issues. Yeah loads of issues. Yes, this quote kind of ties into what we were just talking about. She says how this is from mrs. Ramsey's perspective talking about her kids. Strife divisions difference of opinion prejudices twisted into the very fiber of being oh that they should begin so early. Mrs. Ramsey deplored. They were so critical, her children. They talk such nonsense. She just talks about how they were like criticizing. I think it was either James or someone else at the house and like inventing differences between them and just sort of yeah that kind of ties in the subjectivity thing. And yeah, mrs. Ramsey from her point of view. She. yeah just doesn't want our kids to grow up because in this quote here. Oh, but she never wanted James to grow day older or Cam either. These two she would have liked to keep forever just as they were. Demons of wickedness, angels of the light, never to see them grow up into long-legged monsters. It's because I feel like and then she goes on to say like. And so she went down and said to her husband, why must they grow up and lose it all never will they be so happy again? And he was angry why take such a gloomy view of life. He said it is not sensible. For it was on and she believed it to be true that with all his gloom and desperation. He was happier more hopeful on the whole than she was less exposed to human worries. Perhaps that was it. So mr. Ramsey was more concerned with like greater existential thoughts and he got angry when she didn't want her children to grow up and have to deal with adulthood. And so he seemed to be more happier thinking about these Grand existential thoughts than she was worrying about her kids losing their childlike naivete. Yeah. Honestly, it makes him sound kind of like an asshole not to be like, you know judgmental but I think to have eight kids and be a mother worried about them makes sense, but he it sounds like he kind of has like a fragile ego hmm went very much. So I'm talking about. What is it? So I think this is from his perspective. He says something like. The very stone one kicks with ones boot will outlast Shakespeare. His own little light would shine not very brightly for a year or two and would then be merged in some bigger light and that in bigger still. So he's having this like existential crisis and wondering about Legacy and meaning and it's like why not just be a better dad, you're eight. And that's what Legacy is what he says then. That was a good bit of work on the whole his eight children. They showed he did not damn the poor little Universe entirely. So like his contribution is just refer making them. Yes, that’s good. So is that Virginia Woolf like kind of taking a stab at shitty father? That's a good point. That could be because like where was the code? Here’s one quote: an unmarried woman has missed the best of life. And this is my my little note I added is I guess women authors can be misogynist. Yeah, but but you know, you know, I didn't really think about is she writing tongue-in-cheek there. Yeah. That's what it's possible right? You're right. I guess it is possible. It was well to do our research. Well our huge fan base can reach out to us. I mean we don't like yeah it just it just. Here's the quote. Mr. Ramsey's thinking this. Go on reading. You don't look sad now. He thought. And he wondered what she was reading and exaggerated her ignorance her simplicity for he liked to think that she was not clever not book learned at all. He wondered if she understood what she was reading. Probably not, he thought. See ya. He’s just an asshole. Yeah, so I guess I guess I didn't think of it that way I thought. I thought Virginia Woolf was writing what she believed males thought of women. And you're suggesting that perhaps she is showing she is displaying the absurdity of that men think women are so simple minded and kind of tongue-in-cheek. I think I think that's possible. I mean, I’d like to think I would like to think that it would like to think you're way better. But I don't know I mean. Even a go one more step like further down that is so he's this like abstract philosopher right kind of in his own head a lot. And then she talks a lot about how ordinary stuff is important and things like that. Right? So it's almost as if part of the message of this book is saying that we need to like appreciate the ordinary more and not as much these like Grand ideas that we overthink things like that. I had a quote that sort of goes off of that. Okay, she says one wanted she thought dipping her brush deliberately to be on a level with ordinary experience to feel simply that's a chair that's a table and yet at the same time. It's a miracle. It's an. So she's like brushing her hair or something and just thinking like appreciating these simple things. And some of the good writing I enjoyed was the third part of the book after mr. Mrs. Ramsey dies. Mr. Ramsey is kind of feeling a little a little extra self-pity and he goes to Lucy. Who's there painting she kind of wants to be left alone, but he just wants like recognition for his sorrow. They stood there isolated from the rest of the world his immense self-pity, his demand for sympathy, poured and spread itself in pools at their feet and all she did, miserable sinner that she was, was to draw her skirts a little closer around her ankles lest she should get wet. In complete silence, she stood there grasping her paintbrush. So he was being vulnerable. He one of this cell he wanted this acknowledgement for the sorrow. He was in for mrs. Ramsey's death and Lucy just didn't like I that visual like of the pool of sorrow, and she just hiking up her her her skirts a little closer around her ankles. It's did not get wet. It's like, you know, that's what my quote wasn't going off of is that yeah, there's dipping her brush her paint brush brush. Oh, yeah get some of these are out of context. Yeah. That's the one thing about the Kindle you highlight what you want. Yeah, and it all then you email it to yourself in this nice form. But you lose the context that you it was in. Yeah. Well, you can go back to the page or you can type a note along with it, right? Yeah, I gonna have to type more notes because yeah a lot of stuff. I like it when I'm reading it. But then when I go back and just read the quote itself out of context speaking about a context, I found a quote here. That just doesn't make any sense.  Oh, here's a weird one. And all the time she was saying that the butter was not fresh one would be thinking of Greek temples and how Beauty had been with them there in that stuffy little room. Yeah some about butter. So like the previous sentence something about not fresh butter, and then she goes on timeout Greek temples. I don't know how to interpret. Yeah, I don't know either. Okay, I can read one more about the professor's sort of mental breakdown not break down but sort of existential crisis. He goes on to say: If Shakespeare had never existed, he asked what the world have differed much from what it is today because the progress of civilization depend upon Great Men is the lot of the average human being better now than in the time of the Pharaohs. Is a lot of the average human being however, he asked himself the Criterion by which we judge the measure of civilization possibly not. Yeah, like these great things by Shakespeare the pharaohs like is the average person better off than then I think so. Looking at this now probably I would hope so yeah, okay, but okay. So if Shakespeare hadn't existed, would the world be that much different? Mmm. I think he said a lot of influence on culture and stories and things like that. Oh, yeah as a general idea. Yeah, just but like then then, you know, there's that saying that if you put you know, what a bunch of monkeys on typewriters eventually they'll crank out Shakespeare. So like I don't think that means that anybody could do it, but does that means somebody else would then emerge from history as an a great influencer of of drama and comedy and plays and just social commentary through art? Yeah, because I think that's what Shakespeare did a lot. I think the bigger point is like what does it mean to be a great man? And what does it mean to society to like to be a great person and contribute and what effect does that have and how does that affect like the greater culture? And is he wondering is that the only way to have a meaningful life? He’s asking is the lot of the average human the Criterion by which we judge the measure of civilization. Maybe not. I mean he's just kind of going back and forth in his mind. It's just who knows but this was a good few pages I think of him just sort of like what is that called when you're stuck in your head like he's overanalyzing everything. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, you had a quote. Yeah. Um, I think this was Lily Briscoe painting again in the third part of the book. What is the meaning of life? That was all. A simple question. One that tended to close in on one with years. The great Revelation had never come the great Revelation perhaps never did come. Instead there were little daily miracles, illuminations, matches struck unexpectedly in the dark. Yeah. That was my favorite quote. Oh, was it really that? Yeah. Yeah. So I think this is. The complete inverse of what you said about? Mr. Ramsey. Mr. Ramsey's wondering about great works and great Deeds Done by humans to advance the lot of the average human. Where's this is just saying instead. They were little daily Miracles illuminations matches struck unexpectedly in the dark. It's the little things that we. That we will cherish through life that surprise us that illuminate us that yeah. Yeah. That's what I was saying about like the ordinary stuff. Remember she was right? No, I mean, I think yes, I think we're. yeah, we're on the same page that yeah, just you know, like like this books implies is that we have different perspectives, so our realities are slightly different based on you know, it's subject is subjective. But we are we roughly share the same ideas about the book. Yeah. Do you have any more quotes I was going to end on that one honestly. Was it really? Well, I mean that was my yeah, but you should do some more if you have some way. I might have only two more. I mean I did appreciate. II mean I guess I guess my favorite part of the book was Lily Briscoe painting in the third section and her thoughts about the meaning of life and death and mourning. Mrs. Ramsey. I felt like that was. for me what I that's what I when I connected the most was when Virginia Woolf was going on about her stream of Consciousness and her mindset. Because I didn't really connect with mr. Ramsey. I mean I felt like he was a little bit of a chauvinist egotistical. I mean self-centered guy, but I think that's kind of what she wrote him as. Right? Yeah. I think so. Yeah, I mean I didn't say I wasn't saying I connect with him either. It's. I think he has his characters just like more fleshed out I guess is what I wasn't sure. Yeah. All right. You got it. So yes, here's my last quote. This is Lily. Like I said my favorite part painting on the shore and the third part of the book. Oh the dead, she murmured, one pitied them, one brush them aside, one had even a little contempt for them. They are at our Mercy. Mrs. Ramsay had faded and gone, she thought. We can override her wishes, improve away her limited old-fashioned ideas, she receives further and further from us. I specially like the improve away her limited old-fashioned ideas because when someone dies and passes away we. We don't dwell on their faults, which I think is healthy. We don't want to when someone passes away we miss what do we miss? We missed what we liked about them what we loved about them. And I think that's the thing is like we kind of just gloss over, you know, the negative sides of people. I think one example is the founding fathers, you know people. They were great men very insightful and and full of courage and wisdom to found this country. But at the end of the day, they owned slaves, you know, so overall but I know there's 200 years since then but still, you know, we like to improve away their limited old-fashioned ideas. And that's what we do with people pass away. She's talking about mrs. Ramsey in that passage right? It's maybe the old-fashioned ideas is that clean is to that like matronly role now could be because Lily Briscoe you not to it started really or Lucy I think was the was it Lucy? No losing. Well regardless I've been calling her Lucy this whole time. Yeah. Okay. She I think mrs. Ramsay wanted her to like she's like trying to set her up with another character in the book some guy and she's like wouldn't take to him like she wasn't interested. That's just yeah, so maybe that's kind of the Lily Briscoe is the heroine of this book. That's an oversimplification. Yeah. I know if you're Virginia Woolf like feminist Heroes. That may be what you're saying is like you can choose Lily's route. And even though mrs. Ramsey was like a great mom. You don't have to like do that if that's not your right path or something. Exactly. Sorry. So, what did you write this book out of 5? Yeah. Why don't you go first because not a final is how but all right. I'm giving it a three. I'm giving it a 3 out of 5 because at the end of the day I do feel like it was well written. That's it. That's it as like because the. if anybody else wrote this book, or if it was it would just never be famous if it wasn't so well written. So yeah, so 3 out of 5 for me. Yeah, I would give her three too. Okay, because. I didn't it didn't really Captivate me. No, it didn't but that’s not the point. No, I was a borderline two I was I was thinking about two out of five and I'm like no, this is really well written there. Are there are there are more beautiful moments in here that I just not quoting now because there's just nothing to add. It's just it's just beautiful prose in some instances, you know, and. So I like there's plenty of spots I could highlight and just quote. You know, we're just being the best audience for this too. No I mean and that's fine. I mean, I think that's all point is you want to read stuff that you would normally read or get out your comfort zone and reading. Yeah. So the point is reality is subjective. Yeah. Our opinions are not Universal, but what is reality there? All right. So good pick Tim. I give you credit for thank you including diversity into our yeah, you got to learn. Yeah, I will soon so all right. So we both rated it 3 out of 5. Our next book is picked by me, Brian. It's when breath becomes air. Oh, yeah. It's gonna be another happy one Paul something. Yeah, I don't forget the author's name will have it for next time. so look for our next visit our website. twoguysonebook.com. To comment on books that you like or dislike and we'll share them on air. If you get them in we got we have our next several books posted up there. So feel free to check them out and there are so many comments right now and there's limited space. So you have to you have to really get in there to get your comments. Oh, yeah. We're just running out of that's how the internet were Marie. Yeah, we're limit. Yeah get on it. Alright until next time. Keep reading

Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke

Hi, welcome back to two guys one book. I'm Brian. I'm Tim - I said I wanted to be like this just time. We'll figure it. Yeah. So this week Brian chose rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C Clarke. Yeah. Why did you choose it Brian?

Because it's I want to read more science fiction because I like science fiction and Arthur C Clark is you know, I went on the Mount Rushmore of Science Fiction authors.  He did 2001 A Space Odyssey. That was too mainstream. So I just kind of researched into what else he wrote and this one sounded interesting. So this is why I picked it. I know it took you a while to get through it because you're not a science fiction reader? Do you want to try to give your synopsis of the plot and then I can elaborate upon it again?

Yeah. Yeah, I'll say it did take me a while to get into I don't read sci-fi that often or fiction in general but especially sci-fi feels a little like nerdy, but I'm nerd too. So I should appreciate it. Yeah, basically it's like the year 2077. I. No, I think it's later than that. I think it's like 2130.

Okay, you're right. Yeah, it was I remember that year stands out because that's when they started the meteorite hit like Italy somewhere and then it cause like huge Devastation. And then that's when they started building these spaceships to like confront things that come into orbit to prevent another tragedy.  So that's when like, it kind of sets the stage and then yeah, 2130 or something. Basically, they encounter like what they think might be another asteroid but it turns out to be this like crazy floating thing and another world. I don't know you describe it, right.

It is a flying cylinder through space that is flying along.  It is laterally like a cylinder on its side. Flying through space like a Pringles can. Yes, that's perfect. Because it was many many kilometers long and had a good size diameter to and it was spinning while it was a Pringles can basically rolling across the floor was what Rama was and but it was going through space obviously so because like, I'm fascinated to get your perspective on this because.

Would you say that this book that this story there's a lot that happens? Really you would say that. Oh, you're asking me. Yes, I'm asking your opinion. Do you think this book? No. No, I don't think about that much happened. And I think this is where I think that we're gonna have a good discussion because I think we can Branch off on several different toxic topics like extraterrestrial life and and space exploration and and you know, just Pringles.

Yes Pringles. Yes, I agree. There's a lot of directions we could take this conversation, right? But it's funny. You mentioned that not much really happened in general because. Someone else I was reading there like review of the book and they said it just felt like one big tease that hurts. Like there's never really a payoff.You keep waiting. They keep encountering this mysterious planet and trying to find more about it that and okay.

So you think Rama is a planet not a spacecraft.

I mean do they ever explicitly say? No because it's an alien. Object like somewhere between a planet and a spacecraft right? Can I kind geek and elaborate a pilot the Pringles can that is Rama?

It I found this book so fascinating because this is a purely original idea. Right like I've never even heard of this before where. Essentially the Pringles can is hollow inside or Rama? Rama is hollow inside the enter it from like the what they call the north plane and they stay along the axis and what so since Rama is spinning.

It's hollow inside it that centripetal force gives it a sense of gravity on the inside where they come out. I mean like I don't even do it justice. I'm. But think they come in the axis of the rotation of the drama. They enter Rama and there at this this bottom of this bowl and they look out and they just see this the the whole length.

They don't see it obvious because it's dark at first when they go in there and they see this whole length of the of the Rama just expanding before them. And there's these they do everything in threes. And so they have these three stairways leading. From this bottom of this bowl, but they are radially outwards and as you go along the stairways though, the rotation of Rama creates that gravity effect to where you can walk along the inner walls of Rama and look above you and see across the diameter.

You can see that cross the diameter of inside Rama and it’s not sky, but it's the other ground like it reminds me of the end of inception or not Inception, Interstellar. I get my Christopher Nolan movies mixed up where they leave Earth and they created their like in this spaceship and it's kind of like they kids are playing baseball and they hit a ball and it goes up and it cracks a window like up on the side of the circular space ship so.  I mean, I just felt like the way Arthur C Clarke explain things. I found it so fascinating that that there was this hollowed-out cylinder with its own gravity and then eventually as it gets close to the sun heats up and the ice in the middle of the cylinder that runs radially inside the cylinder melts, and there's some sort of water and then life and then there's weather on the inside a storm happens. The astronauts have to seek Shelter From The Storm they get out of drama, but then that when they go back in then, you know, things are then light the lights turn on and these little they call them by biots, which are little bike.

Biots. Yeah, bio robots biological robots or something and that are basically groundskeepers for the inside Aroma and I just had this I could picture is so clearly that this this massive ship. I mean and everything he did it because like Arthur C Clarke is like a scientist a legit scientists and you just write then you wrote books as well.

So like all the science makes logical sense that  And it was I just found it very compelling. Yeah, you studied physics, right? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I thought that physics were interesting like you were saying how it's a cylinder and you can walk around and it was funny. They talked about the explorers like would freak out a little bit that it because they'd be walking and then see like upside down.

Yeah and like it resist that urge to feel like they're falling or that sense that yeah, so oh, yeah, I just. I just found this there's like an ocean. Yes cylindrical, right the cylindrical sea. Yes. Thank you. That is about halfway down the Rama that the runs it but you know just circles the midpoint of Rama so to speak and so they only stay on the North half and you know the South half they don't even really get to because of the it's the such a big Cliff by the cylindrical sea so they don't even.

They explore that a little bit with some sort of like pedal bike thing that flies because like that's the beauty one thing. I found fascinating was that at that axis of rotation inside Rama, there was zero g because you're still in outer space and it's and that's the rotational effects of Rama aren't felt there and it just I just felt like that was so creative and imaginative that.

I just dug it. Yeah, I think you have to give Arthur C Clarke some credit for being that creative while still maintaining the scientific grounding that it is a little bit realistic, I guess right someone degree in general. I like the idea. This small team going up to confront this massive thing like the unknown and not really knowing what to expect, you know, knowing that they could risk dying by going out there, but trying to discover more about this this thing.

So I like that aspect of it just like the adventure side and the yeah, I also liked the United planets like that part where they had this basically Council back that was meeting at Mars. Basically, like the instead of the United Nations, it was the United planets and they even mentioned like sometimes I'm like, oh man a hundred some years ago.

They had the UN with all the countries on Earth and we can't imagine how complicated that would have been because the United planets was only ours 9 like Earth Venus. No. No, there's no one on Venus because it's so gaseous. But Mercury Earth Moon Mars had people on at the different asteroids in the asteroid belt and like on a couple moons of Jupiter and Saturn so I thought that was a cool aspect of it too that we were that he in his in this story humans are colonizing other planets to a point where  people have prejudices from based on who were planet they’re from just like they would today from what country they're from and all that stuff.

Yeah, and each planet has its own characteristics to or like people from. Like Mercury like that's like a powerful Planet. So they're more aggressive and I wondered if he was trying to reflect like geopolitical realities in the real world, you know, like yeah this planet represents this nation and how they act like. Yeah The Mercury people might have been more maybe the Soviets because this wasn't drinking in the early 70s was when it was written time of the Cold War, right?

Yeah, so. So you're just not a science fiction guy, huh? I mean, okay. I'm trying to think sci-fi. I liked in the past like right. I liked Ender's Game. I know that's more like young adult kids. But like I thought that's like creative and exciting read. Honestly. I know I've read others but like.

I don't know. What's like your favorite sci-fi. Well. Wow. Well, you see that's just it I think. My favorite sci-fi are like all the dystopian books. Okay, I mean that because that's science fiction to like Fahrenheit 451 Brave New World. Yeah I mean because it's taking science and more. It's more of a societal look on science fiction.

Yeah. I see syfy's more space stuff, right and I think but I think science fiction if you just look at what that means. It's just taking you know, What the human capacity for science, maybe and exploring that what it could be in the future. Yeah, it's kind of broad and I know but it has the very strong space connotations and I think that that is only natural.

But but what about. Forget about books though Tim. What about movies and or TV shows that you just don't even really grab watch those. It just reminded me of annihilation that we saw not too long ago. Yeah. No, I I'm not trying to like hate on either one because I know we kind of made fun of the movie.

Yeah some extent but the part I did like about the movie is that it was like Natalie Portman and these like three other women going into this unknown thing and trying to find out more about this alien presence. Which had in that regard I found the parallels and I like that aspect of it right?

You're right. And and that's a good point is there were parallels there especially because in Annihilation, well the book because they didn't really talk about the pit in the movie but the book there's a big pit that she goes down and she gets infected in the pit or whatever but it's similar. It's cylindrical, you know tunnel going down and the cylindrical Rama as well as parallels there.

Yeah, I guess but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, do you even have you ever seen Star Wars? I don't even yeah, okay, but like you're not I like it. Okay, that's fine. I don't know. Yeah, that's a raving review from him Star Wars little. Okay, so I mean because I've read this book in like a week because I was just.

The chapters are short. I was compelled with you know, what were what were we going to learn about Rama next? Like I felt like we were along with the exploration team. Yeah. It's exciting that he kind of kept you on edge in that regard. But like at the same time, there's not a big payoff. It's not like I didn't feel like this followed a good Arc with a satisfying conclusion.

You're right. We didn't even really say How It Ends right? We I just that's the the what hooked me was Rama. His explanation about this giant flying cylinder. So I guess we still haven't finished our debate is Rama a planet or a spacecraft. What do you say to Tim? I don't there's no answer in the book.

Yeah. I say it's a spacecraft because like essentially what happens is Rama comes through our solar system. All the humans are freaking out because we're afraid that this is going to, they're going to attack us. So the people from Mercury who I think he could he cleverly called him. Let her means because like Hermes Mercury were the same, you know Greek or Roman and so the Mercury Hermes on the Hermiens on Mercury fired a bomb or missile at the a trauma because they were afraid of of the ramens coming awake.

And because because we said all these little by biots are biological robots, they didn't really have intelligence. They just kind of performed routine tasks. And so all the humans were worried that romp the rama's inside we're going to suddenly awake and then we'd be all screwed wasn't it? Also that mercury like relied on the Sun a lot further industry.

And so yeah. This was a big part. It's like so.

This is what the justification was for launching the bomb is that they thought Rama the planet was going to like interfere with the orbit or block them their son of reception. You know, right? Yeah, I forgot about that. They thought that Rama was going to park itself in the solar system. Yeah and screw us all this.

Yeah from a nation's perspective that's like blocking off a resource or something. So they're like, that's the threat to our way of life type thing. Yeah, but ultimately what happens is. Rama gets so close to the Sun that that Commander Norton and his crew have to have to evacuate and I like that they were the ship's name was Endeavor and they talked about Captain James Cook and that link there I think it was cool. But basically Rama they think are they I think they were going to they weren't sure if they were going to park in the solar system, but then they thought well they were going to use the sun to kind of gain momentum and then leave the solar system, but it's acting Rama skirts the Sun and almost goes into like within the part of the sun to really get a slingshot and zooms out of our solar system. So basically Rama just comes we hitchhike on it a little bit explore inside then we then we get off when it's too close to the Sun and then it swings around the Sun and leaves the solar system.

And I think that this does I think this is it in a series I think so it's a series but I don't think he wrote it originally with that in town guy. Yeah. This is another thing I liked about the book was because I never really thought about this aspect of alien life.  because the aspect I'm referring to that in this book is we see alien the existence of alien life.

It's within our solar system yet nothing happens, you know. Every other story we think or read about or scenario that we can hypothesize about life is like or at least for me I think about aliens intelligent life or if aliens out there. They're just not intelligent enough to travel to our solar system yet aliens are highly intelligent and just haven't gotten here yet or they're super intelligent and have observed us from afar and realize we’re bumbling idiots and are never going to come here, you know, like and then if you project that into all the science fiction movies and books and everything is like there's always some interaction between humans and Aliens when whenever we whenever we discover that they're really out there.

There's always some interaction. Here there was like no face-to-face interaction with the actual Ramans it was just all their little. You know robots. Those are those Ramans though. Like I don't think so. I think they because didn't they like dissect one and say like this is this is robotic but it has a molecular level to the base of the structure of How It's Made so they kind of feel like it was kind of designed by somebody else.

So yeah. So, you know, like that's one thing I never even thought about is like just and I think there's some quotes in here that I highlighted that that reflect that fact that that we just we see them but then they're gone before we can interact or learning more from them. Yeah along those lines I thought it was interesting to hear it that planetary committee people debating how they should handle the situation and I thought what Arthur C Clarke did a good job of was making it a realistic debate or discussion of what these people would say like their concerns their ideas about what could happen they talk about how like in the past if an alien civilization, you know, it hasn't happened before but when like Pizarro met the Indians or something, they're different like voyagers met other civilizations it usually didn’t end well, right right. So right there just saying this doesn't have a good president. Yeah precedent pressure in the past.  so yeah, I thought that was interesting. Yeah.  you think about the commander Norton? I like him. I mean like there was not much character development. No, but. What we learn about them is interesting and like I think one of the guy that leads the United planets or the chairman of that is like a hundred and fifteen years old and so like he also hypothesize about that about longer life expectancy.

And then Commander Norton has two wives. One on earth and one on Mars. So that's interesting Arthur C Clarke was trying to normalize polygamy. Yeah. Yeah, one thing I found interesting them to is two of his crewmates.  On the Endeavour actually shared a wife so he did have it go both ways where but so yeah written in the 70s right after the 60s. Yeah, yeah free love and all that stuff. So yeah, maybe Arthur C Clarke was just a swinger is that sad? That is that the highlight of our episode is Arthur C Clarke was a swinger. That's my biggest take away. Yeah. Now the part was funny when it talked about him having two wires because it said he would send like a video message.

Uh, but he would keep a generic enough to like apply to both of them. It's really okay, honey. I'm doing good. Yeah, just keep it really um General. Yeah. Yeah, that was good. But as a commander he talks about always like putting his team first like protecting his team. So when people go off on like side expeditions, You know cares about them and stuff.

So he sounds like a good leader and a captain. So yeah, I thought so too. Oh and one of my I mean like I'm just I was just so fascinated by the concept of inside the cylinder because like because when they came through they're coming along the axis. And so when they came through the hatch they were looking out down a cylinder. But as they went along the curved plane, they eventually flattened out and so at one point somebody at that hatch had to like throw a can down to the captain and he just basically chucked it and it kind of like bounce bounce it and rolled like for a couple kilometers just down the gentle slope, you know until it finally reached camp and I found that but like from where his point of view was it was up and to the left.

But he tossed it sideways and it rolled, you know, it's just I can't even I can't even do it justice because it's just it's just yeah, you really got into this. I did I did I did and that just the idea of Rama. Yeah fascinated me. I guess I just had trouble with the lack of character development.

That you mentioned. I mean other than describing Rama. I don't think there's nothing else that really happens. Yeah, I will give you that. I mean. Not a book filled with action, but there I'm about like you never know what to expect though. That's the thing as I enjoyed. Yeah, cause you never know what discoveries they're going to make about Rama next.

I can appreciate that. I just wished he like fleshed out some of the characters more like when he talks about like James Cook the Explorer he talks about how Commander Captain Norton was really like into him and his story and that even though he was like one of these. Not Conquistador, but like, you know voyagers who maybe colonized places.

He wasn't like as evil as the typical one or something. So he's trying to like emulate him and just this General theme of Adventure and exploration. I like that aspect. Yeah. Yeah, definitely because we went to the moon 69, right? So this is like not long after that. It's right. Writer he's right.

Yeah the setting. Yeah, I never thought of that before but you're right like, you know, they would have still probably had Apollo missions when he was writing it.  That would be way more advanced by now. Wouldn't you wouldn't you if space travel was was more like was possible for us. Would you go live on Mars if there is like no risk of the issue.

Well, yeah, like in this book they talk about like travel between Earth and Mars is like travel from here to Europe. You know, I think Mars is overrated. Really? Yeah, I know okay on the surface that's kind of a blunt stupid statement. But like we keep hearing about how people like Elon Musk are like obsessed with it, but he just read all these sci-fi books when he was a kid.

So I think he's just got this idea and said and he's like way smarter than me. So I'll trust that he knows what he's doing but like living on the moon I think is more realistic is what a lot of like scientists. And in general there's so much we can do on Earth still to make it better instead of trying to like make an atmosphere on Mars but it sounds hard as hell like to do.

So why not just like use all of your intelligence and resources but like do some right? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. You're one of those I was too hard. I don't know what I mean. Why would you go to Mars? It sucks out there. There's they probably need surveyors on Mars. Is this a sign to I'm a surveyor, so I don't know I mean.

I mean, it's not even close to the realm of possibility. So I don't even have to make that decision. You know, I think that's that's the thing. It's like, if something is completely out of the realm of possibility than you you would be more apt to say that you would do it right like given the chance Tim.

Would you climb Mount Everest?  No, okay. I mean that's a bad example, you know, I mean like I don't know if you could head a movie studio would you do it? It sounds stressful. Yeah, I think it was like something something more within the realm of possibility than living on Mars, you know, I mean when you like yeah, like giving an option of something completely unknown unattainable.

I just can't tell if you when you offer me a hypothetical situation if I have to deal with all the negative things and I guess think about the fun aspect of right right, but no, I mean there are people who are born when the first planes took off. Yeah. He lived to see the, you know, go to Mars so.

Well Moon, you got yeah, sorry the moon. So yeah, there are things today that could seem unreasonable but still occur, right? Yeah, and then that's you bring up a good point that there are people that were born saw the first flight and then saw us land on the moon in their lifetime. So there's no wonder that they would expect us to have flying cars by now, you know and come on.

Where's our flying cars? Wouldn’t that be disastrous though? I mean some people can even drive on a two-dimensional Earth. Let alone flying around in the sky. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, we're I mean ya know it is interesting or like hoverboards. Hmm, I guess yeah. Yeah. Alright. Here's another question.

Do you believe in extraterrestrial life that there's something out there in the universe? There probably is okay. So you're just basically saying that from your statistical mines that the law of averages says there's got to be something else out there in the universe, right? Yeah.  What do you think?

Oh I agree. Do you think do you think you don't believe in that UFOs? And yeah a UFO is an unidentified flying object. Yeah, I believe some final checks her own head. Okay. Are you asking me if I believe aliens have visited us? I don't know probably not. I agree with you there probably not.

Yeah, I just think it's pretty egotistical to think that aliens would go out of their way to come here and visit us, you know.  Maybe they want our water. Or it's like in signs when they come here. You see the movie signs a long time ago, but they were like allergic to the water. Yeah, that's why I was so funny said it was like the biggest pothole and yeah, just cause I like him as planets like mostly water and water kills us and Night Shyamalan.

It's just a master of was that when he started to go downhill, I think that was wasn't my sixth sense. Yeah. But a nice kind of surgeon back isn't anyways, I haven't seen his new movies. I haven't either but here the good okay. Um, what did you think of the simps? Do you know just what I'm talking about there?

That was like the monkeys who had like human capabilities. Yeah, it's funny how we kind of mentioned it but didn't like elaborate that much. I know he did. He didn't it was it was a little weird like apparently they bred these monkeys and I think they bred them over time and cloned them to so they were sexless but they could perform remedial tasks to maintain the spaceship and they were strong.

Yes like that. Yeah. Yeah, but they couldn't handle being in the space suit so they could only be in the spaceship. Which I thought was odd. Yeah, I'm just I'm just going over things that just piqued my interest. Did you want to do quotes? 

 I can start with blend that and I liked how I mentioned earlier with the asteroid hitting  Italy  hmm after that. He says after the initial shock mankind reacted with the determination and a Unity that no earlier age could have shown.  Which is just a simple sentence, but it's kind of a cool idea that it.

It takes one big thing to get everybody United but then once that happens for more together sort of right? Yes. I thought I I'm glad you brought that up because that was a that was an interesting plot Point as well as that like that was the Catalyst that kind of help them explore space more and set up the the space.

They didn't call it space force did they, space guard. Excuse me. Yeah, it was based guard.  And then that eventually led to the United planets and all this stuff. So.  yeah, do you think they're all right. How about this for a hypothetical question? Will there ever be a moment like that that can actually unify humans worldwide?

I don't see why not. I mean if there's like a meteorite asteroid or some climate change-related thing, I feel like. That could get people on the same page. Okay, it reminds me of okay the movie The Martian. Did you see the Martian? Okay. Well, he's all right. That's my fire. Yes. Yeah like that. Did you read the book or I didn't read the book.

I just looks pretty good. So good. Yeah, so. One part I liked is that he's stuck out there, you know on Mars and China like helps bring him back. They like offers their resources or whatever. So that's an example of just like International Unity based on this like existential issue. Yeah, I would view that as temporary though.

I don't think there will be I don't think there will be anything that will that will unify humans worldwide to the point where everyone will just band together. why are you so pessimistic? I'm a realist so cynical. Yeah, maybe I am a little more cynical this week, but well, I'm.  If I could just read one more thing to build off of that.

No, he says a hundred years earlier a much poorer world with far fewer resources had squandered its wealth attempting to destroy weapons launched suicidally by mankind against itself. The effort had never been successful but the skills acquired then had not been forgotten. Now, they could be used for a far nobler purpose and on infinitely faster stage. No  meteorite large enough to cause catastrophe would ever again be allowed to breach the defenses of Earth, so began project spaceguard.

  yeah, that kind of sets the stage for yes. It does. Yes ran very well and he's a very anti-nuclear person. I think it's pretty clear. Yeah, and yeah written in Cold War times.

 and here's here's a little example of how Arthur C Clarke can explain the world insane Rama much better than I can because the guys are descending the steps getting out to the plane and here this after storm and they hear this noise. They're like that's a familiar noise.  And it was the sound of falling water.

So there was the origin of the sound they had heard descending from some hidden Source in the clouds three or four kilometers away was a waterfall and for long minutes they stared at it silently. Almost unable to believe their eyes. Logic told them that on this spinning world no falling object can move in a straight line, but there was something horribly unnatural about a curving waterfall that curved side ways to end many kilometers away from the point directly below its source.

I got another quote in there  okay, here's another one. They're sailing on the cylindrical see   they create a makeshift raft to go out and and see if they can if there's any place along the Steep Cliff to climb up on the other side, but the cylindrical sea runs,  the whole circumference of the inside of Rama.

So there's no way around it, but. So they can look up and see  the sea directly above them to.  So, all right. Every time Norton said to himself, I feel that I've grown accustomed to Rama it produces some new Wonder as Resolution hummed steadily forward it seemed again and again that they were caught  in the trough of a gigantic wave.A wave that curved up on either side until it became vertical then overhung until the two flanks met in a liquid Arch 16 kilometers above their heads. Despite everything that reason and logic told them, none of the voyagers could for long throw off the impression that at any minute those millions of tons of water would come crashing down from the sky.

That's pretty cool. Yeah, so like I mean things like that that help that just. Arthur C. Clarke helps me anyway visualize the world so so complete and I guess that's the thing is like sure there's not much character development or  action or  that nothing really it's a tease nothing really happens from Rama but like he goes into good detail.

That's so visual for me like sometimes books can try to explain things and I'm reading them and it sounds nice but I don't see it in my head. You know, I but for this one I could see it so clearly like I was there on the raft looking up and seeing this huge ring of water that I'm on and just being completely baffled about the physics behind it all so yes. Yeah, he does a good job of describing it but he doesn't fall into the Trap of like over explaining things like some authors. He leaves enough room for like the mystery of it to be interesting. I felt like he had some good passages as well. Like just like short ones like  this is where I think Johnny pack or something was his name one of the crew members flies a little like flying bicycle  down   the radius. Or down the axis of Rama to get to the South End he flies over the cylindrical sea and many tries to fly back, but then he's crashing but as he does, so he actually he felt little fear and this surprised him for he had never thought of himself as a particularly Brave man.  It was almost as if he were watching the struggles of a complete stranger and was not himself personally involved.

I feel like.  in times of Crisis sometimes people.  Act in ways that surprised even themself because it's kind of like an outer body experience or something yeah, like that guy that character was an Olympic Athlete or something? Yeah. Thanks. Olympics are saying yeah the lunar Olympics. Oh, is that what it was? Yeah, that's right. They sent him out on a little Expedition. That was cool. 

Okay. I like this quote about Captain Norton. He says Norton had once visited the ruins of an Aztec Temple and the feelings he had that experience now came echoing back to him Amplified a hundred times. Here was the same sense of awe and mystery and the sadness of the irrevocably vanished pass, yet the scale here was so much greater both in time and in space that the mind was unable to do it justice after a while it ceased to respond. Norton wondered if sooner or later he would take even Rama for granted.

I thought that was boring now.  Yeah for being a scientist guy. I think Arthur see Clark's pretty good writer, too.

Yeah, you get this sense that he just likes the idea of Adventure to and like these past Travelers and oh, yeah   I always liked the in history learning about the Explorers Columbus Vasco de Gama Magellan all those guys did I mean maybe that did you have interest in that?

It's go. Yeah. I was really interested in. Yeah. I know a lot of them turn out to be really terrible people. But like that's the whole thing about history. You hold him to today's standards and everyone's a terrible person before 1900, right? That's why he mentioned James Cook though. I think is that.

As far as those guys go he was in his Terror. Yes. He was more fair to his crew and to the natives he met and and all that stuff. Yeah, so true.

this was a little something I thought was funny the commander gets a message like a message comes in someone, you know prints it out and gives it to him and then. Slowly and thoughtfully, he walked across to the improvised life support complex and dropped the message into an electrosn the brilliant flare of laser light bursting out through the crack beneath the seat cover told him that the demands of security were satisfied. It was too bad, he told himself, that all problems could not be disposed of so swiftly and hygienically.

Because he's talking about a toilet. Yeah, either it in the toilet and the electrosan like. Vaporize their waste it's like little things like that enjoy to yeah in general his tone was kind of like dry had some dry humor to it. he would throw in those little funny parts to break up the serious part.

Right and Commander Norton this is after Mercury launches a missile heading towards Rama and one of the commander Norton's  crew members comes to him and says that they can have a plan to go out like go out into space do a little solo Mission  and disarm the missile and so commander Norton's weighing the options of does he make this does he do this and be a saboteur and disarm the missile and upset potentially the whole United planets at the same time saving Rama or does he just ditch Rama Let It Be exploded and see what happens but this was the passage: to act or not act, that was the question. Never before had Norton felt such a close kinship with the prince of Denmark. Whatever he did the possibilities for good or evil seemed in Perfect Balance. He was faced with the most morally difficult of all decisions. If his choice was wrong he would know very quickly, but if he was right, he may never be able to prove it. 

And so that made me think of like.  not just history, but even. Personal lives like I've had this thought many times. It's like we never really know we rarely know when we're close to disaster, you know, like if oh dang, you know, we're driving along and we don't catch that yellow light we stop and it's red or like oh darn, but what if we if we made the yellow light maybe at the next intersection, we would have gotten hit and then an accident, you know, like things like that.

I mean that's that's just a random act but like sometimes when you have to make a tough decision and you can't make up your mind, there's no way to really know sometimes that you made the right or wrong decision in life. And  that can be frustrating but it's part of life. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I like that he had some like morality issues here and there like heavy decisions like that, right? This is the guy defusing the bomb. This is Norton weighing the options of  should he play order him to follow through with his plan to disarm the bomb or should he call him back and say no you don't do it since a big kind of just say I'm in that context, right?

It's like upset Mercury and Disturbed the world order or because Mercury just by destroying it. It's like you could upset the civilization that may be back home or it's like in general the worry was that they're going to destroy this knowledge and you know past civilizations.

  oh, yeah, so speaking of the people on Mercury he says. They were respected for their toughness and Engineering skills and admired for the way in which they had conquered so fearsome a world, but they were not liked and still less where they completely trusted. At the same time it was possible to appreciate their point of view. The Hermians it was often jokes, sometimes behaved as if the sun were their personal property. They were bound to it in Intimate love-hate relationship as the Vikings had once been linked to the Sea. The Nepalese to the Himalayas The eskimos to the tundra. They would be most unhappy if something came between them and the natural force that dominated and controlled their lives.  

So yeah, that made me feel like this is this like space politics thing where they were so dependent on the Sun that they were going to Nuke. This uninhabited space world to not have it risk interfering, right? Yeah. That's what that was. Well done. Well 

alright, so this is the towards the end when Arthur C Clarke is describing how Rama is approaching the sun rounding the sun like almost  dipping into the Sun a little bit dude, slingshot itself out of the solar system.

Faster and faster Rama was swept around the Sun moving more swiftly than any object that had ever traveled through the solar system in less than 2 hours its direction of motion had swung through more than 90 degrees. And it  had given a final almost contemptuous proof of its total lack of interest in all the world's whose peace of mind it had so rudely disturbed.

Like I didn't give a shit about the rest of the solar system like just gone  so  that's why I view it as a spaceship because I view the ramens programming this path picking our son out. As a good slingshot point to get to some other Final Destination and I don't mean those shitty like 90 movies if yeah, yeah.

 maybe I guess it explains like the  biots  they weren't really interested in the people, right? They would just kind of like pick apart their equipment or try to. See what everything was but they didn't care that much about the individuals. So.  I've got one more quote.

I could give I think this kind of summarizes my favorite aspects of it. So he says I think this is the Olympic Athlete guy who was on the sky bike and kind of went on this little sub Adventure, right? Because it was a dangerous. It was kind of side missions.  so he crashed before he said your quote he crashed on the south side of the Rama and he came to the cliff and they had him jump off the cliff that was like 50 kilometers high and then land in the water because they calculated the terminal velocity.

He would reach is it would be a little less than on Earth because Rama had a  lower gravity. So it wouldn’t kill him if like held his shirt above his head like a almost like a parachute to increase the drag and that's pretty cool. Yeah part that be cool to see in a movie. Yeah. I was looking on YouTube of like four clips about this and it's like Morgan Freeman producing a movie about rendezvous with Rama.

Yeah. This is like four years ago. So I think it's just. Production hell or it's not going to happen. Yeah, it'd be hard. It'd be I think it would be hard. I mean because they would they would if they had made a movie they would have to do something more to keep the story interested because there's no way like like you said there's not really a payoff.

I don't think they can make a movie that just doesn't have a payoff, you know, right like even Interstellar has kind of an open ending like with the the future of humanity and all that stuff, but it's ultimately about Matthew McConaughey's character and his daughter you have you seen Interstellar? I've seen it yeah, they probably have to add some stuff to it to make it more acceptable to audiences make it more satisfying but it's a little refreshing to read a book that doesn't follow a formula because so many books are very really predictable.

So the fact that it doesn't have a payoff is frustrating but it's kind of like you respect that it's different. Oh, I I totally liked it. I was not particularly frustrated with the way it ended I felt.  I felt it was kind of refreshing because it was like I said a concept I never thought about before that aliens would just do a flyby and we'd see them but aliens don't care because they're off to bigger things.

Yeah.  I'm sorry to interrupt or no, it's all good. So he says. Yet if there were no hazards there would be no achievement. No sense of adventure. Millions of men would gladly have traded places with him. Now. He was going not only were no one had ever been before but also where no one would ever go again. In all of history, he would be the only human being to visit the southern regions of Rama whenever he felt fear brushing against his mind he could remember that. 

Yeah. That is good one. Yeah, and it's going would you like to say that you've been somewhere and no one else has ever been. Is that possible now? That's it?

I don't think it is any more right unless like you get technical and like because there's volcanoes in the Pacific. So like if they  reach above the sea level then it's technically an island so you can just go there and be like, hey, I'm on an island. So I've done it I've yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I mean if you've gone to some like obscure cave or like. You know natural location, even though you're not the first person it's still it's a cool feeling to think like not a lot of people have been here, right? So right, you know, I'm getting kind of feeling did you ever read Robinson Crusoe?

I don't think so. Okay. I remember reading that. I was younger and really loving it too because that time he was deserted on a Caribbean island in the Caribbean I think and. Yeah, and so he thinks he's alone, but maybe he's not he's not. Well, we'll see. But anyway back to this book. Yeah, this is my last quote.

I liked it because it's at the end and it's Commander Norton.  He had succeeded on this Mission beyond all reasonable expectation. What his men had discovered in Rama would keep scientists busy for decades. And above all he had done it without a single casualty, but he had also failed. One might speculate endlessly but the nature and the purpose of the Ramans was still utterly unknown. They had used the solar system as a refueling stop, a booster station, call it what you will and  had been spurned it completely on their way to more important business. They would probably never even know that the human race existed. Such monumental indifference was worse than any deliberate insult.

That's a good. Yeah, I like that one because I mean that's.  I guess.  I've always had this Cosmic perspective not always but I have a cosmic perspective of I guess just where humans are in the universe because. This stems probably from my religious background me going to church every Sunday growing up Mennonite rather conservative, shielded, kind of out of touch with I guess mainstream culture and Society a little bit.

So as an adult, I you know had to re-examine things as I grew up and don't really know what's out there or what's beyond this universe. I believe in a higher power, but I feel like humans are limited in our capacity to try to process what God could be. So we have kind of developed what suits what makes sense for us humans to rationalize and think about it.

So I have always wondered about.  not just other life in this universe, but beyond the universe what is out there? I do believe there is something bigger than humans, but I can't say that we have all the answers. And so to think about aliens not even you know dignifying us with an insult. Like he says just sheer indifference makes me think about the human place in the universe and Beyond and is.  is I think. An interesting thought like it thought exercise for me. I think you know, it would benefit most people to think a little more about, bigger, on have a bigger broader perspective of human beings than just,  I know I know it's hard, you know, you have to go to go to work you guys make make some money to provide for you and your family and whatnot.

I always think there's time to contemplate bigger things. Maybe that's why I like science fiction. 

Most people aren't as enlightened as you Brian. They don't all of this Cosmic perspective. Hi. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. I know. No, but as another enlightened person, I think you're right now, I think that's a great quote.

Wrap things up because it's a very humbling thought that the aliens are just passing through like don't even take us seriously enough to because we like as a people as stemming out from the individual family culture civilization everything we see ourselves as the center of like the universe and just to think that there's so much more out there that.

We're not even on their radar of like these other beans that's it is very humbling feeling. So yeah. 

Yeah, so we shouldn't get caught up in all this like, you know, BS and right I guess that's what I'm getting at your yes. Thank you, Tim for for helping me find a direction because yes this it I don't mean people should like wallow and say, you know humans are to the suspect on a on a blue planet in the middle of those gigantic Universe, you know, no. I think that all human all Humanity has a common Destiny in the universe like what happens on Earth affects every one of us. So while you may be having a shitty day because your boss is hard on you or  You you have to go to the doctors or  or some other inconvenience, just I hope  people can realize that in the grand scheme of the things it does really matter. I’m about to be a fatalist,      just don't sweat this I guess that's the thing is I'll leave you with this. Don't sweat the small stuff,  enjoy being around the people you like and people you love and  big kind All Humans because we're on it together.

It's good advice. Yeah. All right. I started to Rapture wrap it up to him. Yeah. What's your rating? Oh right rating.  I give it a five man. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah, I know. I mean I thought about a 4 because like,  should I reserve my five-star ratings for book I like that are my all-time favorites like Brave New World and Catch-22 in those.

I don't think I can because like a star a book I book I should be able to write a 5 Rigby rate of five star and not have it on my like top 10 list, you know, because then that's going to limit my five stars, but you know what for how how much I read it how fast I read it. I was constantly hooked.

Go into chapter to chapter. I can visualize the inside of Rama so well in my head thanks to Arthur C Clarke subscriptions that yeah 5 out of 5, you're going to give it like a three or two. No, no, you give it to I'll give it I give it a 3. Yeah, I think yeah, like I can appreciate it more having discussed it with you and I like how much you you took away from it, but just.

As someone who appreciates more story arcs and character development. I felt like those were just too lacking for me. Right and I think that's a totally valid critique of this book. Yes, but I also think that what you said first is that you listening to me helped you appreciate the book more. I'm I kind of like that about our podcast here is that we we discuss it and it helps shape our views of the book because like you and that's all point is to read books and talk to talk about them to other people and yeah, so because one person's perspective is not always enough. Yeah. Yeah, so go to our website to guys one book and let us know what you think guys one book.com. Next book is to the lighthouse by Virginia Woolf.

Yes, I haven't started reading it yet. I think you have I have but this is this is one of your pics it's one that I chose. So it will be a good one this time just kidding. I'm just kidding. I like this book. I would I would recommend rendezvous with Rama you would like. I  just don't read sci-fi that it's really just my personal.

Okay note to self never pick sci-fi again. Yeah, or if you want to make me angry, don't let me get angry. If I want to make you angry I’ll make it read another Malcolm Gladwell book. Yeah what it is like a Sci-Fi Malcolm Gladwell. Probably the worst just all right. Oh, yeah, Virginia Woolf. Yes, very nice. Yeah. I think it's like ranked like in the top 20 of all novel.

Yes very well regarded. Yeah. Yeah should be good looking forward to it. Yeah. Until next time keep reading keep reading keep reading. Is that how we're good?